Working full-time or exclusively in the Singapore arts industry has proven to be a challenge for many. In light of this uncertain reality, what can arts workers still take away from going to arts college?
Speakers: Ke Weiliang (host), Selma Alkaff, KayKay Nizam, Michele Lim
Ke Weiliang
Hey, hey, hey - we're back live! For those who just tuned in and don't know me, I'm Weiliang, the founding administrator of this Telegram channel, Channel NewsTheatre, and also the host for this radio chat, Study Art for What? If you're wondering what's my personal investment in this topic - well, for me, I have been freelancing in the arts scene since 2015, and when I finally graduated with an Arts Management degree from LASALLE College of the Arts in 2019, I was so dead-set about spending the rest of my working life in the arts industry. I was so sure. And guess what? Jeng jeng jeng, two years later, I'm working full-time in a fintech company. Of course, I still do the occasional passion project, like this Year in Review event. But I stopped finding it financially and emotionally sustainable to devote myself entirely to freelance arts work anymore, and I have personally grown quite comfortable with this partially distanced relationship from the arts. I do see myself keeping it this way for some time. But to be very honest, I think I really struggled with it a lot. Last year, when all my gigs dried up after COVID hit Singapore around March and got very serious - I mean, even if you think about it, without COVID - being a freelance arts worker is already hard enough. I went through this entire phase where I really questioned myself - did I set myself up for failure? Why did I work so hard in arts college, only to end up working in an industry outside of the arts that didn't need me to have this BA degree? So, yeah - study arts for what? And it's definitely going to be a bed of roses, but I personally like to think that it's also not all doom and gloom. And for this discussion, I have invited three guests who have very different encounters with arts education and working in the arts. Disclaimer, we definitely won't have any black and white answers by the end of this hour, but if you are considering studying something arts-related, hopefully the grey areas that we bring up will help shine some light on your decision in the future. So please feel free to put your comments in the chat group, or at the end of the radio chat I think we will allocate about 10 to 15 minutes for people to ask questions. You can press the Raise Your Hand button on Telegram, and we'll try to get to you. Without further ado, let's welcome our guest speakers. First up, Michele Lim. Hi, Michele - could you briefly introduce yourself?
Michele Lim
Okay, so I've been practicing in the arts - I went full-time in 1991. I graduated from law school, I worked for three years, then bummed around for six months, and then I went into the arts full-time. I worked for TheatreWorks for 10 years. I did different things in TheatreWorks - I began as PR Manager, then business development, admin, finance, and eventually GM. And then I worked for a paint-it-yourself ceramic studio - this is a retail franchise; I wanted to find out more about how franchises work. And I worked in SDT for six months, to build up their outreach and their administration. And after that, I decided that full-time work is not my thing, because I've got two kids by then, and I wanted that flexibility, and so I went freelance, or independent. Since then, I've been doing different types of work. In terms of my work, there are three strands - arts management consultancy, producing, and teaching. In relation to today's thing, I have been teaching at LASALLE since 2004.
Ke Weiliang
So Michele is the arts educator that we have in the room today. And next up, we have Selma Alkaff. Hi Selma! Selma, could you briefly introduce yourself?
Selma Alkaff
I'm Selma. I'm a freelance actor, educator, teacher and virtual babysitter, which is quite recent and new. I graduated from SOTA in 2014, and then I went to London to go to drama school - the Royal Central School of Speech and Drama, where I did a BA Acting degree. I graduated in 2019, and I was freelancing in London for a while, and then I moved back to Singapore during the pandemic. So I've just been freelance acting, teaching - and then during the pandemic, I started this thing called the virtual babysitter, which we'll talk more about a little bit later - that was born out of the freelance life and incorporated my acting training, and I would say my Muggle job. You know, when I'm not acting, that's my other thing.
Ke Weiliang
So Selma is a practitioner who's really had to innovate her practice because of what's happened recently. Thank you, Selma. And finally, we have KayKay Nizam, Hi, KayKay. Thanks for joining us. Could you briefly introduce yourself?
KayKay Nizam
Hi, my name is KayKay Nizam. I am a full-time arts practitioner. I graduated from NAFA in 2015 with a degree in acting, but unbeknownst to a lot of people, I actually have an advanced diploma in Mass Communications from MDIS. I took a double diploma from MDIS. Right now, since the pandemic, I've been doing a lot of projection mapping, digital art, but my major has always been acting, as a performer.
Ke Weiliang
So KayKay is, as you can tell - he is a jack of many trades. We do have a diversity of people in this radio chat. So, yeah, let's cut straight to the chase. I'm going to direct the first question to the arts educator in the room. Michele, to set some context for people who are tuning in, could you give a quick overview of the arts education landscape in Singapore, and the different kinds of pathways that are available to people interested in arts education?
Michele Lim
Okay. So just to be sure that we're all on the same page, I'm looking at 16 year olds. The assumption is: you've finished your O Levels, and then what are the different arts education routes you can take. So - if you're doing theatre, if you're interested in theatre, you can do the A Level route, in which case you find a junior college that offers Theatre Studies as an A Level subject. Or you can go into Diploma for Performance at LASALLE or NAFA. And for theatre, you can also even look at technical production, because some of them at the CCA level like that kind of work. Or if you like applied drama work, there is the Singapore Poly that offers Diploma in Applied Drama in Psychology. And if you feel you're still not quite clear, but you want to go - you know, make sure your parents are still okay - some of them actually go into Arts Management. In which case, at the Diploma level, you have Ngee Ann Polytechnic and Republic Polytechnic. For dance, if you want to pursue after 16 years old, there's the Diploma at LASALLE and NAFA. For music, A Levels, you have the music elective; for Diploma, LASALLE, NAFA. In LASALLE they offer not just music - they also offer another module called Audio Production. In fact, for Audio Production, there's also one at Singapore Polytechnic. And then visual arts - A levels again, you can do the arts elective, and at Diploma level, there's LASALLE, NAFA.
Ke Weiliang
Right. So, clearly there's some choice available to you. It's not that there's no choice at all. But I think the question here is - when you do take up one of these choices, what do you get out of it? So this is what I'm going to pose to Selma and KayKay, who have been through some form of arts education. I'm going to actually pose a question - I'm going to start with KayKay first - we're going to ask Selma the same question, of course, but - KayKay, you were in NAFA, right? Could you just give us a snapshot of a typical day at school, and what did you get out of your arts education there?
KayKay Nizam
The curriculum when I was in NAFA was pretty scaffolded and structured for you to learn in your foundation year the essence of performing. And then the second year, you would be more specialised and more exposed to other forms of mediums and disciplines that theatre entails; for example, set design, production design, lights, sound. We had very good instructors during my time - we had proper industry practitioners who also shared with us their experience working in productions that were happening during that year. And then in the third year, you were trusted to perform on stage in productions - for mine, I had to do a solo flight. I had to write, direct, perform in, and design my own production. And then you're just out there in the industry. So my day to day was very simple; to me, it was very, very simple, because it was already there. You 9AM clock-in, do body movement warm-ups for one hour, two hours; your body's warm for the day. Then you go to do theory classes, and then you do practical classes, and at the end of the night, you go into rehearsals. But I was very itchy, so I went and did my own productions outside, which the school did not like.
Ke Weiliang
So I think from what you're sharing, I think there's clearly - even though you majored in theatre, you don't just prepare to be an actor, but you get this very multifaceted education. You learn a bit of technical theatre, you learn how to write, and so on and so forth, so there's that sense of progression that I'm hearing from how you described your education at NAFA. What about you, Selma - when you were in Royal Central School of Speech and Drama, was it something similar to what KayKay had described, or slightly different?
Selma Alkaff
Slightly different - I think NAFA sounds a lot more creative, and I think they teach you a lot more things. Central was very vocational - just acting. From 9 to 5 it was voice, movement, and acting. We didn't actually have a lot of opportunities to direct or write. I guess it's, like, pros and cons, but I think, ultimately, when you learn how to have other skills, you are more prepared for the industry, in my opinion. So I think Central was a lot of vocational acting work. So the first two years was voice, movement, and acting. And then, in your final year, similar to KayKay, you have your performances for the industry. You do three big shows, scenework, and then, in the UK, agents come and see you. So you're basically preparing for your Year Three, which is your big showcase, where you are trying to get signed by an agent, because in the UKm agents are a big thing.
Ke Weiliang
For sure. It's interesting that you mentioned agents, because the next question that I want to transit into is this idea of networking. So KayKay mentioned that he was a very naughty boy when he was in NAFA because he went to do productions outside, and to be honest, when I was at LASALLE, I was guilty - I also did productions when I was in school, and I got reprimanded by my own lecturers before. And the thing is, on a very realistic point of view in the Singapore arts scene - I can't speak for other arts sectors elsewhere in the world - but for us the circuit is more closed. You don't get so many open calls or opportunities; it's dependent on word of mouth. And that is the reason why, I guess, people - students, especially - end up taking gigs when they're schooling, because they are so worried that "if I only focus on school, I don't build up my network, and when I graduate, I might be screwed". Michele, as an educator, what do you feel about students whom you realise are actually doing this double-hatting while they're in school?
Michele Lim
Okay, that is not an easy question to answer. I think it very much depends on the person, the student, because they will have different priorities. And sometimes I - you know, in chats, it could be: are you anxious because of your fear - FOMO, is it? Fear of missing out? So think you want to - but sometimes it's also... I think, to put it simply - if you've come to school, then focus on school and do well. That's my thing. Now, the reason why I would say you are discouraged from doing work outside is more of that it will affect your health, in terms of focus, because you do need to rest. School is already quite taxing; you technically should use the time to rest, to be ready for school the next day, and to do its projects. But I think for Singaporeans - and listening to you earlier - I think we all want to achieve - we want to tick the boxes very quickly. So that part of you will kick in. But I would say: take your time. There's a reason why school is the way it is. It does not hurt, actually, to take the time to build yourself up and to build up your skillset, depending on what it is. But you can still be knowledgeable, you can still go and watch shows - it does not mean - working is not the only way you're going to know the industry.
Ke Weiliang
At the end of the day, I guess, from an educator's point of view, there's really no right or wrong answer to this question, but you really have to choose what is sustainable for you.
Michele Lim
I think you have to ask yourself: why did I come to school? What am I paying school fees for?
Ke Weiliang
And I guess if you do choose to go to school, you shouldn't be ponning it altogether, because then why do you even come in the first place. Thanks for that. So, Selma, did you have a similar kind of dilemma to what KayKay mentioned earlier on when you were in school, about networking and getting to know agents and all that?
Selma Alkaff
I think in the UK, drama school is quite strict. So the first two years, you're not allowed to do anything outside of school. But in your third year, they allowed you to leave school - some people didn't do some of their final year shows because they were casted and things, which is great; the school's like, that's what the third year is about - it is about industry. I do understand the dilemma of students who are like: "oh, can I just submit myself for this audition, they will take me out of school". I guess it's finding the balance and the timing. But yeah - I think KayKay has a bit more to say about this than me.
Ke Weiliang
So, KayKay, after you listened to Michelle - on hindsight, what do you feel about what you did back as a student?
KayKay Nizam
I 100% completely agree with Michele - when you go to school, you should focus and pay attention in school, be present I think that's one of the soft skills you learn as a practitioner - to be present, and to have clean boots before you get into class, and just be present to absorb the knowledge that is being transferred to you from your teachers. But for me - and this is my own personal experience I'm speaking from - I had two classmates in my class in Year One who dropped out from the first four weeks of the course because they had an opportunity to be an actor for productions. Shoutout to Noah Yap and James Kumar, who are excellent actors - actors who are excellent at their productions and what they've done with their craft. But they missed out on a lot of things that I had the opportunity and privilege to learn in my class with industry practitioners. And we took different trajectories in our careers. But for me, personally, I've always been the kind of guy that cannot - I'm always interested in things that are new. I would want to call myself a futurist, and I'm always worried about what's next. So I will always find things that I'm inadequate at and learn how, why, where I can get all these resources, and they're all available to me outside of school. So I took that opportunity.
Ke Weiliang
Right. So I think now that you have had that hindsight, you did also realise that there is some value to what is being taught in school, but at the same time, I would say it's not possible to cast aside that networking part, the 'go outside of school to network' part also. I'm going to open this to all three of you - how would you suggest you strike a balance between the two?
Selma Alkaff
I think you should always take up opportunities when you can - so if it's the school holidays, or if there's short events - I'm talking about in-school time - I think when you're young, just take everything. When I'd just graduated from SOTA, I just emailed every single theatre company, production company, everything - voiceovers, acting gigs, whatever, just to be, like, hi, I'm here, I'm willing to audition and try. So I think you have to do that work. But I guess when you're in school, it's just finding the balance - so I guess school holidays, programmes, asking your teachers if they know anything, if the school can work with an outside company.
Ke Weiliang
Sometimes it's not about getting yourself cast in a show per se, but getting people to know that you are around in the industry, and even if they don't cast you then, they have that option in the future to connect with you. Thanks for that. KayKay and Michele, do you have any comments about how to make this balancing of school and networking outside more sustainable?
Michele Lim
Sorry, when you say networking, what does that mean?
Ke Weiliang
Getting to forge relationships with people whom you wouldn't get to meet if you only stayed within your school bubble or circle.
Michele Lim
Actually, within school - especially if you're in an arts institution - you're already networking. Let's say - okay, I teach in LASALLE, right? You technically can get to know students or emerging artists from all the different faculties, and they're more amenable to you, because you're from the same school. Definitely in SOTA, I've seen, you know, they kind of know each other. So that opens up opportunities for collaborations in the future. And you keep in touch with that, and you never know - because down the road, you say, hey, I think I'm doing this - I remember you did something like that, shall we work together - they're going to be more open to you. And if you're in art school, your teachers are more likely to be practitioners. They will remember you, in terms of your attitudes, or what your gifts are, and all that, and they will keep an eye out for you. For myself, I do track, very loosely, my students who graduate, and I'm always so happy when I can work with them, or when something comes up, and I feel, "hey, I remember, he said that he liked to do this". One of my DADP students - in class, he was very interested in prison work. After he graduated, after he finished NS, and the opportunity came up, I said, "hey, there's this work that involves prisons - interested?" Yeah. So, if you ask me, you can form a network in school already.
Ke Weiliang
Right, you already organically fork the network in school, and by extension, when you meet the people in school, they also have their own networks outside. So there's no need to FOMO at such an early...
Michele Lim
And they probably will know you. Your classmates know you. They might pick up things that an external person may not know, because you only meet the external person very shortly, for a short while. So the impression's a bit different.
Selma Alkaff
And they're also the new generation, right? They're gonna be with you, you're all the same age, so start collaborating with them.
Ke Weiliang
KayKay, how would you advise people to balance between school and networking outside?
KayKay Nizam
Personally, my opinion about this is that: when you choose a career in the arts, your education, albeit professional or personal, never stops, even after you graduate from whichever school you come from. The knowledge is always there for you. And Selma can attest to this - there is never - enough is never enough. You've always got to strive to do better, and you're only as good as your last whatever thing you did. So you have to constantly improve. And improving is not like lifting weights - you want to train this muscle, you start with weights 100 times a day. No! You've got to live, you have to get your affairs in order. Your personal finance, all of these; you've got to take care of you. When some real stuff happens to your life - for example, COVID - you have to make hard decisions. You have to either pivot to another industry that doesn't necessarily correlate to the arts, but you have to survive. I remember a guy who said: your spirit must be strong, because you will be tested; when you choose this career, it's not as straightforward as any other industry, you work, you get. It's not that simple. It's a lot of personal skill - how do you collaborate with someone that you've never met before? Or someone from another country, another culture, that is not from your own experience? And you've got to battle with a lot of things. In the bigger picture of things, it doesn't stop. So just as an individual, as yourself, you've really got to make a lot of, in retrospect, your own improvements, personally.
Ke Weiliang
That's a very good point. And also I didn't realise - something that you mentioned earlier on - is also realising that you do have a life outside of the arts after all, and those things will actually affect your life view in the arts, so you have to have some discretion, and not only think about the arts all the time. So thanks for that, KayKay. I'm going to move on to the part where you graduate from arts school, right? That's a very nerve-wracking time, because people are asking: what am I going to do after I graduate? There's so much uncertainty, right, because we have so many arts graduates, but there's - I don't really have a sense of numbers of freelance opportunities, but in terms of full-time jobs, there are definitely less full-time jobs than the number of arts graduates every year. I don't really know how to make sense of that, to be honest. For you, Michele, I know you do a career management module at LASALLE for your graduating students. So I'm just wondering, from your time listening, talking to graduating students on the ground: what concerns have they expressed to you about sustaining a full-time livelihood in the arts, be it in a permanent position attached to a company, or even as a freelancer?
Michele Lim
I will just put a caveat first - the last few years I've been teaching more diploma students. So in terms of some of the concerns they have shared, it would be things like - those who decide they want to continue their studies, then the question is: "oh, I want to continue doing a degree in, let's say, acting or dance, but I don't have the money. How can I go about doing that?" So that's one concern. The other one would be those who feel: "okay, I want to go and start work", in which case then the question is: "how do I enter the industry? Where can I find work?" And one that keeps coming up would be: "am I good enough?" And then for some it's: "I don't know. I don't know if this is what I want." So they are concerned because they don't know. And I do find that that's - I may be quite wrong, but as Singaporeans, you have this thing that: "if I go to school for something, I must end up doing that one thing". Which, to me, is - no. Studying or education is a journey and not an end. Once you start seeing it as an end, then when you don't do what you think you've trained for, then you feel that you've failed, but that is not true. That's a myth. You should look at education as a journey, because whatever skillset you pick up, it's going to inform you somehow in what you do in the future. And you don't know - you may not know it at that time. That's fine. It's fine.
Ke Weiliang
That sense of imposter syndrome that you alluded to - it's something that I felt really keenly when I was still a student, because I never really had a sense of what the end might have been, because you can't realistically have a sense of what the end would be, right? And I always wondered: "oh, no, am I good enough? Or are people just going to ignore me when I try to say hi to them in the theatre or FOH or whatever?" So I think from what you're saying, I'm picking up on - it's good to be able to realise that everything is a journey, and it's okay to totally change your mind. There's no shame attached to that. Even if you leave the industry entirely. It doesn't mean that you have not learned anything valuable from your past experience. You did, but perhaps the time for that was just up, and you're just moving on to something new. Thanks for that, Michele. Selma, now that you've heard Michele speak about these concerns that some of the students have raised, did you feel that your experience in arts school adequately prepared you for the arts industry as a whole?
Selma Alkaff
Yes and no. Yes in the sense that they prepare you the skills - how do you act? How do you approach Shakespeare, all of that. They prepare you very well for when you get a job, but they do not prepare you for when you not get a job. And the reality of - I'm speaking for acting - is that you're going to spend more time waiting and auditioning than acting unless you're the top 1% of your industry wherever you are. The reality is you're going to do a lot of waiting. I think, for me, having done a gap year, I prepared myself for that mentally. But I had some friends who graduated from drama school, and they got a really big shock. They graduated and they're like: "oh, I don't have an agent, I don't have auditions for months. What am I going to do to make myself happy and fulfilled?" So I think in my experience in the UK, it did not prepare you for the industry at all. They prepare you for when you get a job, but not when you have to hustle and be a freelancer. They prepare you to be an actor, but not a freelancer. So I think that is something that I learned along the way myself from speaking to other people, and realising what makes me happy, and how do I approach my freelance acting life in a way that I feel fulfilled as a person.
Ke Weiliang
So I'm getting the sense that your school did prepare you very well in terms of the hard skills, acting and all that. But in terms of softer skills - I mean, I guess you might have picked up some relational skills, but I think what I'm hearing is: in terms of what happens if you don't get a job, what do you do with your life? It kind of left you a bit stranded.
Selma Alkaff
Yeah, like - what jobs are there for actors to do besides acting? I just thought it was waitressing and babysitting, and that's what I did. I would babysit for 10 hours, waitress for another 10 hours - and there's a lot of merit in that work, I learned so much, but it is not sustainable. It's exhausting. If you do a 10-hour shift, and then you have an audition, or you want to be creative, you just don't have that kind of energy. So I think for me, it was learning how to hustle smart. What kind of work is there for freelance actors which is freelance - if you get a gig, you can drop it; it's not like you're working a 9 to 5 office job. So that was one thing I had to navigate. That's how I created the virtual babysitter, because it was a job that incorporated all my acting work, incorporated my experiences with babysitting in real life, and a job where I could work for myself. So I could decide my schedule. If I had an audition, I could change my classes around it. So I think my advice for anyone freelancing is your Muggle job when you're not acting has to be there too. You have to love it as well, and I think subconsciously, it's going to affect how you audition. It's going to make you a happier person, it's going to subconsciously affect you when you are acting, because you're an overall happier person, and you have other things in your life.
Ke Weiliang
It's so funny that you've brought up this Muggle term repeatedly, which is an allusion to Harry Potter, right - because I think some of us can get very fixated with the idea of: "my entire livelihood must only be in the arts". But actually, if teaching tuition outside, for example, for - I don't know how much they pay for tuition nowadays.
Selma Alkaff
They can pay pretty well.
Ke Weiliang
$50 an hour, $50 to $100 - yeah, if that works for you, then there's absolutely no shame in going for that instead of struggling with just a $10 per hour job.
Selma Alkaff
Or saying, like: "I only act. I won't do anything but acting". Okay, great, if you get those opportunities - but the reality is you need to feed yourself, go for movies, enjoy things you like to do, if you like to buy iced lattes that cost a lot of money. So there's no shame in doing other work that's not completely related to acting. That does not mean you're less of an actor. Not at all. I think it's just hustling smart. And whatever that is for you, that's like, yeah - you've just got to figure that out.
Ke Weiliang
And KayKay, for you - you've been in the industry longer than myself and Selma, after graduating - how do you feel? Did you feel like your experience at NAFA adequately prepared you for the industry?
KayKay Nizam
Hold up, before that, can we just give a round of applause for Selma being an entrepreneur and starting here own business? I mean, that is inspiring. Yeah. Kudos to Selma, that is amazing. But back to the question. NAFA - yes and no. I'm the kind of person who, before I reach an answer, I'll ask another three more questions about it. If I want to go do a residency - another question will lead to forming a collective, the other question will go: why don't you produce your own stuff, why wait? You know what I mean? That's just how my mind works. But the reason why I'm like that is because I've always known that the key to success is skillset, mindset, opportunity. And if you already have two of those, good luck, you've just got to keep on keeping on. Once the opportunity comes, are you ready? Are you ready for the opportunity? Maybe you're not, then - just get ready. I'm always ready. It's not like: okay, after this production, let's take one week off. I'm back at it again the next day. And I have make sure I'm always at the top of my game. I don't treat it like a hobby. This is my life. And that's what I have to do in order for me to live a good life.
Ke Weiliang
Thanks for sharing that KayKay. I am going to open a bit more about what Selma - because she mentioned that she started the virtual babysitter, which is like an expansion of what her practice already is - and this idea of, you know... I think art students, we spend so much time in arts school, we struggle so hard, and the reality of it is that you might not end up exclusively working in the arts full-time for the reasons of sustainability that we already brought up just now - for example, if you majored in acting, you might end up doing waitressing, babysitting, you might end up teaching tuition, being a financial consultant. And some people, like myself, might end up pursuing careers in another industry altogether. If you told me last year I'd be in a fin-tech company this year, I would have laughed at you, but I'm laughing at myself right now, right? I think what I'm interested in is - I'm going to pose this to Michele first. What are some of the transferable skills that we can take away from arts education and extrapolate to other industries even if we don't end up working in the arts industry full-time.
Michele Lim
Okay, some transferable skills would be communication skills or presentation skills. I think definitely for actors, for dancers, they do have an add-on for people who are not so exposed. Definitely for theatre - I will tell my theatre students, my expectations will be very high when it comes to presentations, because you, more often than not, will not have problems with speaking and communicating. So presentation skills, communication skills, critical thinking skills - because I do believe that, when it comes to the arts as a way of thinking, it opens up your mind, and you're expected to think critically. And empathy - definitely in performance, we are always looking at a situation, themes, and all that - you'll be putting yourself out in these shoes, and you have to think, and you have to read, you have to know. One of the interesting things is fitness and wellness, actually - health. Especially for dancers, even actors - their body is their instruments, so they actually do keep fit, they do keep healthy. I think recently the Singapore Drama Educators Association did a talk on nutrition for arts practitioners, and the person who's doing it is a Musical Theatre graduate, and she went into learning about nutrition, and she's also a fitness coach, I think. I suppose the other thing that you bring is actually your network - for example, I was sharing with you, when I was consulting with an F&B company, they recruited a new executive and she was from ADM, NTU's Art Design Media, and she was a Film graduate. I mean, I was so thrilled, because I can talk concepts with her. So when it comes to marketing stuff, we can talk concepts, and it becomes a lot more creative in terms of how we want to do an event or launch a product. I'm not getting the cookie-cutter kind of answers. Maybe because I see it as a way of life, a way of thinking, the way we access the world - that's the value that we can bring to all the different sectors. I do feel that people from the arts make pretty good UX designers.
Ke Weiliang
Right, so there's that very multidisciplinary approach and way of thinking that, if you had been through arts education, you would be more likely to apply into the outside industry that you eventually -
Michele Lim
I think it's more bringing into whatever you do a way of thinking, a way of looking at the world.
Ke Weiliang
Which might be just beyond your professional life, even in your personal life, interpersonal relationships with people, right? And KayKay, for you, what do you think people can take away from arts education that's applicable outside of the arts, even if they don't work full-time in it? What do you think people who go through arts education - and they might not end up working in the arts full-time, but what can they still take away from having gone through an arts education?
KayKay Nizam
How to be a better human being. Arts is there for people to find balance, find peace - whether you're rooting for the villain or the protagonist of the play, you start to learn how to listen - to listen to your own self, your own thoughts. And then through the whole play, whatever piece of art you're exposed to, you learn to navigate those emotions, those social situations, and you become a better human being. When I go and teach at secondary schools, it's amazing how much I learn as an educator. How kids play - it's so amazing how they play, and at some point in our lives, we get too bogged down with social status, and all these adult things, and when you do a piece of art, you just let go, just be yourself - that's an amazing feeling, and I think that's the main important thing of an arts education, whether you are pursuing it in the hopes of doing it as a career, or just as a touch-and-go kind of thing. It makes you feel happy, at the end of the day.
Ke Weiliang
That sense of fulfilment, of achieving something that you've looked forward to for so long, and I guess also what you alluded to earlier is a sense of reflexivity for what is happening around you, and self-awareness. Selma, what about you - what do you think you can take away from arts education that is applicable outside of the arts?
Selma Alkaff
I mean, yeah, echo everything that both Michelle and KayKay said, but I think another thing is - you become an arts consumer, right? For example, when SOTA first started, a lot of people misunderstood the school. They were like: oh, it must be a vocational school, everyone's going to come out a singer, dancer, actor, musician, visual artist - and that's not the case. It's always been an arts integrated programme, arts as a tool in teaching math, science - and it's just creating this wholesome curriculum. So I have a lot of friends who didn't pursue the arts, but they become consumers of the arts, and we can talk about arts, they support the arts, and that's what you need. Not everyone should be an artist; if not who's going to support and invest in, you know - so I think an arts education, whether you pursue it or not, is going to make you someone who appreciates and consumes the arts, which is what the world needs.
Ke Weiliang
For sure. And on that point of 'even if you don't go to art school', I think it's important to address that demographic of people, right, because the reality is some people don't have the financial means to do so. Some people might decide that: "I'm interested in the arts, but an arts education is not for me at this juncture". But they're still interested in being involved in the industry. So I'm going to open it to the three of you. This is my final question for now. Before I ask the question, I want to encourage listeners to pose any questions that you might have on the chat, or you can prepare to raise your hand during the chat while the speakers are speaking, and I'll get to you.
Selma Alkaff
In terms of acting, for example, I think if you audition for - you have to audition to a drama school to get in, right? You audition for LASALLE, you have to audition for NAFA, you have to audition for drama schools in the UK. You want to go but sometimes you can't go. I had a friend who auditioned for five years in a row to get into drama school in the UK, and he didn't get in. And that is a really, really sad reality of arts school sometimes. But I think to anyone who didn't get in, even if you were a 12 year old who audition for SOTA, and you didn't get in - please don't think you can't do the arts. Not getting into SOTA, not getting into a vocational arts school, does not define it. If you love it, there's so many ways of pursuing it, and there are so many actors or performers who are full-time performers, and they didn't go down a traditional vocational school route. They went for workshops, they went for smaller training programmes, or part-time, and that is completely valid. So, yeah, I just wanted to say, if there's anyone here who didn't get into SOTA or an arts school, it does not mean that you can't do it. It's just that it's going to be a different route, and I just truly believe that if you really love it, you will find a way and the energy of the world will support you. Yeah, that's what I think.
Ke Weiliang
Thanks, Selma. And KayKay, for you, what would you advise people who can't go to arts school, but still want to be involved somehow in the arts?
KayKay Nizam
As an artist who works in a lot different mediums, my best friend is Mr Google.com. In this digital age, anything, whether it's related to software that I did not know how to use, or whether it was a piece of hardware that I didn't know I needed for this software to work, or a certain ideology or psychology or whatever concept that I did not understand, I Googled it. I Googled it, and then I found resources that were available to me, whether they were free, or I had to pay a subscription, like SkillShare, masterclasses, or things I had to pay one time and then just play around with it and see what worked, what didn't work. It's all there. You don't necessarily have to fix yourself to, or commit to an institution, because it's all out there for you for free. You've just got to grab it.
Ke Weiliang
Yeah, you're right, because I guess - you mentioned Google.com as your best friend, and I think the resources out there now are really a lot more abundant than - I don't know, for people who started pioneering in the theatre scene in the 80s, or the 90s. So that's a very good reminder. And Michele, how would you advise, as an educator, how do you advise someone who can't go into arts school for whatever reason - if they still want to be involved in the arts, how can they do so?
Michele Lim
I truly believe if it's something that you want, you will find your way to get it. It's just that the difference between, let's say, 20 years ago, when I was in school, versus now, is there are a lot more options in Singapore. In the past, you know, when I was studying, there's no such thing as a degree or diploma in acting, or theatre - there was no such thing. So if you want to do that, you go overseas; if not, you just learn on the job or just pick it up. So I think the difference is there's more opportunities, more platforms, more avenues now. And honestly, if you really want something, you go for it. You'll be hungry. You go for it, you find a way to get into it.
Ke Weiliang
For sure. I think it's really not also about - being too frustrated about: "oh, I will never have the avenue to get these cues", because help is available anywhere. For me, I'm starting to realise that it is more important - even if you can't go to arts school, you make friendships with people who are in the arts. Somehow, some way, that path might open up from a very innocent - you know, if you hang at Centre 42, you most likely have went to Al-Jilani for supper, and a lot of conversations happen from there, and you never know what will happen in terms of your next opportunity. I think keeping that open-mindedness - yeah. So that's the questions that I have prepared for this chat segment. And I see that there have been some questions on the Channel NewsTheatre chat already, so we're going to address some of them. Jacqueline has a question - "if you could choose again, would you still go to arts school?" Hmm. Who wants to answer first?
Selma Alkaff
Yes. I would go to arts school again. When I look at it now, there are some times where I'm, like, "wah, drama school is a little bit cringe". Sometimes it's very, very indulgent. But it's the only time of your life where you can literally spend three years doing acting, movement, and voice, every day for nine hours, and for it to be so, so, so important. Of course, now I look at things, I'm like, "wah, I cried over that? Like, come on. There are bigger things in life". But I think if you have the opportunity - but of course, the reality is it's not always the cheapest option, or everybody gets to go. But I don't regret it. I would do it again.
KayKay Nizam
To answer this, it would seem that I had a choice to join an arts school, but actually I didn't. The arts school chose me. I had the privilege of going to NS before I pursued an arts education. Before I ORD'd, I was very, very keen on becoming a dancer, because I was a street dancer at that point of time, and I wanted to pursue a more linear route as a dancer, and study dance at LASALLE. But I had the opportunity to meet a lot of friends who were from the theatre department in NAFA at that point in time, and I watched a couple of shows, and then I just went for an audition, like, "eh? I'm here! I'm here in this rehearsal room doing weird [voice exercises] stuff, like, what's this? What am I doing?" You know? So if I could go back with the knowledge I know now, there are some things I would do differently, but it's something that you're - the calling is there. So yeah, okay, I'll answer the call.
Ke Weiliang
And I will take a stab at this question myself; I'll take myself out of the moderator head for a while. I went to Arts Management at LASALLE - I think I would go back again. The thing is - to be honest, when people ask me: "eh, what's arts management, Weiliang?" I tell them I cannot answer that question, because an arts manager does a broad spectrum of things - it could be from front of house, to production management, to sponsorship, and all of that, and different people might choose to specialise in different things at some juncture. But even though for me - and I swear that I'm not going to be an arts manager moving forward, because I think the time for that has passed for me - but do I regret going to Arts Management? No, because for me, I think having gone through that arts manager curriculum made me a lot more reflexive, because when you go to Arts Management, you start to become - I know the word multidisciplinary has appeared in what Phil has said in the chat, we're going to address that later - but you start to see the lines between a lot of different art forms or projects are starting become a lot more blurred. You can't really neatly categorise things into theatre or dance or visual arts any more as cleanly as you used to be, and you start to become a lot more critical in that sense, of what are these boundaries that I'm trying to navigate. And when you become more attuned to these grey areas, I think you start to become, in a sense, more of a shapeshifter. You don't become so concerned with the form of what you're doing, but the purpose behind why you want to do this, and after that, you adapt your form to fit that purpose. I think that kind of adaptability has served me quite well, that adaptability that arts management taught me. I guess it's the reason why I even was open to jumping into the tech industry right now. You never know what you're going to get, but it doesn't mean what you did in the past was not worth it. Yeah. Thanks for that question, Jacqueline. And we're gonna answer Philippe Pang's question on the Channel NewsTheatre chat - "the word 'multidisciplinary' was mentioned a lot this year and earlier in the radio chat as well. What does the word 'multidisciplinary' mean to each of these speakers in the context of your own practices and lives - the idea of not being fixed to just one form". Michele, do you have a take on this?
Michele Lim
I don't quite know how to answer this question, because for me, arts is - okay, I don't look at it in 'boxing things'. So if that is multidisciplinary, then, okay, yeah, that's how I view arts practice. It is not siloed. In fact, your vista opens when you're aware of the different forms and your ability to use the form best to communicate what you want to do or want to express; it gives you that kind of - your palette becomes wider, and you have more means to communicate or express what you want in the most effective way, depending on who your target is. If you're just one form, then you will be limited by that form. I'm not so sure that answers that question.
Ke Weiliang
Sure. KayKay or Selma, do you have a take on that?
Selma Alkaff
I think, for me, I always felt like I was not multidisciplinary. I felt like I was always: "oh, I just want to act, I only want to act". And I found out in SOTA, where we were given a lot of opportunities to direct and do other things, I never did it. So when I graduated, and I saw a lot of people creating their own work, I was like: "oh, wow, okay". I really limited myself by saying: "oh, I just want to act". So I think that's something I'm trying to figure out now, and I think that's why - when I created the virtual babysitter because it felt like: "in the arts, if I'm not acting, I'll do something not kind of arts-related". So that's something I'm figuring out myself. I don't know if I would call myself multidisciplinary within being an arts person. If you told me: could you direct this? Could you do this now? I don't have the confidence to do that yet. So that's a word that I'm trying to understand for myself. But in terms of multidisciplinary as a person, I think I am. I can teach; I'm trying to go into a slightly more businessy approach to things. So that's my take on it.
Ke Weiliang
Yeah, I suppose it's not about knowing every single thing in the world, but it's more about being open to new sources of information, things that you're not previously used to.
Selma Alkaff
I think you have to be. For me, when I limited myself and said "I only want to act", that's when I realised that I'm limiting myself in work and life and happiness, and so I think you need to be multidisciplinary, whatever that means to you. You have to be adaptable into other things.
Ke Weiliang
Right. And KayKay, I would definitely call you multidisciplinary. What's your take on that word?
KayKay Nizam
I think all productions are multidisciplinary. It is what it is. I think also this is a hot word since the 2010s, because we start educating people on other disciplines as well, like, production being a discipline, dance being a discipline. And at that point of time, when we started doing a lot of studies and archival and documentation of a lot of other disciplines, we started collaborating with other disciplines with that mindset in our process. And then the next hot word which came up was interdisciplinary - this discipline and this discipline, fusion, then become Vegeto, you know? Vegeta and Goku, you know, become Vegeto.
Ke Weiliang
I don't know what cultural reference that is, but go on.
KayKay Nizam
Yeah, for me, all productions are multidisciplinary. As a multidisciplinary - an artist who uses multiple disciplines, you are more capable of doing productions that have many disciplines, or many productions with different disciplines.
Ke Weiliang
Thanks for that, KayKay. Okay, we're going to take one last question, because it's 1.54 already. I think Nabilah's question is a very good one to end on. If there's one thing that's 'broken' in arts education - or if I could reframe it - if there's one thing you wanted to add to arts education, or change about arts education, what would it be? The educator in the room, do you have an insight on that?
Michele Lim
That one is a better question to direct students, because they will know what's broken and not broken. But for me, I'm quite lucky, when I was asked to do the current management module for LASALLE, that I worked with programme leaders. They were very concerned about their students, and what's going to happen to them after they graduate. So we actually talked and designed it together, and the module was designed such that they had one year to think about what they want to do. So it's broken up into two parts. One is about self - Who am I? Why am I in the arts? What do I want to be? Why is it so important; is it my purpose? And then the other one is about what's out there in the scene. So I really value my programme leaders for actually thinking about this, and the kids are given a year to think about it. But this module will no longer exist - it's going to be changed. So I don't know what the module is going to be like - it's going to follow more the Polytechnics, because they're looking at internships. But they are going to test it out; now, they are recognising that there are different routes - there is the "I work in a company" route, or "I want to be a freelancer" route, and then the arts entrepreneur route. So they have now mapped out these three, but I don't know how it's going to be, because that will start - I think they're going to implement it with this next group. But I think it's more like Selma and KayKay - because they went through school, and they would know what is it that they wish they had.
Ke Weiliang
Yeah, for sure. Selma, what do you wish had been changed or added?
Selma Alkaff
I think, for me, it was the industry prep. I think you need to give people a bit of a reality check - you're not going to be acting 24/7, 365 days a year, which is kind of what they make it seem, at least from my experience. So I think just more industry prep, like, okay, what are you going to do? What kind of freelance jobs can you do? More of a practical approach to how to be a freelancer, that would be mine.
Ke Weiliang
Right, like actually living your life outside of the arts. KayKay, what about you?
KayKay Nizam
I wished that when I was in school - and okay lah, to preface this answer, I had a lot of mentors along the way throughout my journey in school, and they were all, at that point in time, still figuring out what they were going to do with their own careers and their own art forms. But I wish there was one person - it can be a teacher, a fellow student - I wish I had that one person to sit down with me and fix me. And not to say I'm broken, but whatever the education system is, whatever system it is, whatever the machine is going to be - I wish there was somebody like I have now for myself, the way I would talk to myself is put everything into perspective. Are you happy? At this point, are you happy? Do you want to do this for the rest of your life, and earn 40k a year? But are you happy? If you're not happy, then something's got to change? How do we change that? Where can you find information on how to change that? Maybe take a side hustle, start a babysitting, virtual thing? I wish there was someone at that point in time to not just give me advice, but just listen and put everything into a path that: okay, this is the first step I need to take.
Ke Weiliang
Sort of like a mentor figure in school?
Selma Alkaff
A career mentor or something, for artists, or anyone who wants to pursue the arts.
Ke Weiliang
Yeah. Actually, Michele, would that be something similar to what you do for your students?
Michele Lim
Yes. But having said that, because I can only reference the last few years because it's essentially diploma students - so actually, they're very young. And I don't expect many to actually know what they really want, and it's okay. So actually, what I do is tell them: it's okay. But it's more, think about it, I'm not asking you for an answer, just think about it. And then also recognising sometimes there might be external pressure that is giving you this thing that "I've got to answer!" that you have to recognise. Some pressures are real, some pressures are just yourself, putting yourself - but you've got to know. So the self-awareness is super important. And like I always tell - you've chosen this profession, it's not the easiest; you've chosen this sector, it's not the easiest. Therefore you need to be very clear why you want to be here, because that's the one that's going to continue to motivate you, to drive you,
Ke Weiliang
Hopefully, moving forward, more institutions will have more Micheles around for people to ask for advice. Okay, so we've come to the end of our radio chat - I know Max you had a question, I'm sorry we couldn't address it now, but I'll give a think about it, and I welcome people to actually discuss this question on the chat group itself even after this. And I know someone actually raised their hand just now - sorry, we couldn't get to you, but if you want to ask you a question, please feel free. I think everyone in the chat is happy to chime in if you want. But yeah, so that's the end of the radio chat Study Arts For What? Thank you for tuning in, and if you forgot everything that we discussed the past hour, the one thing you can remember is: do what you have to do, even if it's in the arts or not. Nobody will judge you for it. So thank you for that, and with that, our next radio chat - we'll have half an hour of song dedications, and our next radio chat will be the ArtsEquator podcast at 2:30pm. Thanks for tuning in, and goodbye. Thank you.