Flirting with the Frenemy: Art & Tech

Vithya Subramaniam

Hello, you are in the right place - This is Flirting With The Frenemy: Art and Tech. I am Vithya Subramaniam. I am the moderator for this next hour. Shall we meet our panelists? Let's get right ahead. Hello, Adeeb.

 

Adeeb Fazah

Hi, this is Adeeb. I'm a theatre director. I work with the Second Breakfast company, but also Impromptu Meetings, and several other things. And most recently In The Round, which is a network of emerging theatre directors.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Have you been busy this year?

 

Adeeb Fazah

Quite, I would say.

 

Cherilyn Woo

He is a man of many hats.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

A man of many hats. We will come back to all those hats in a bit, but first, let's meet that next voice. Hi, Cherilyn.

 

Cherilyn Woo

Hi, it's Cherilyn - I'm a theatre director and writer. I'm an associate of Nine Years Theatre, but I'm a freelancer as well, so I also am part of the collective Izzy and Cher, and I'm also In The Round. And I work with many different people and sometimes I rap.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Great. So a lot of busy, busy people today - this year. Today, this year, all the time. Just busy, everywhere. Let's meet our third panelist. Hello, Xuemei.

 

Han Xuemei

Hello, everyone. My name is Xuemei, and I'm a theatre director. And while everyone is busy, I've taken a sabbatical this year, so I'm relatively chill and relaxed. But in two weeks' time, I'll be heading back to Drama Box, where I primarily work as a resident artist, theatre director, facilitator, blah, blah, blah.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Blah, blah, blah, but also recipient of this year's Young Artist Award, congratulations! So just to figure out what's been going on, let's talk things. My sense is that: a lot of us turned to technology last year, but that was kind of a survival mode thing, right? We had to find some way to do work in a time when we clearly could not go out, cannot have live audiences. But things are different this year - live shows are back. But there's still a lot of work that is digital, a lot of work that incorporates technology. So, first question for everyone: what is your personal relationship with technology? How does technology work into your art? What is your approach?

 

Adeeb Fazah

I think it's a complicated relationship; it's complicated. I feel like I will look at what story I'm telling first, and then think about what kind of format I would like to use, and then whether different kinds of technology will play into that. And, I mean, I think you can't really run away from technology of some kind - even things like where you're going to sell your ticket. So, for me, it's that kind of process where it's: what is the story, and how I'm going to tell it.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

So story first. Yeah. So, in a way, your approach hasn't changed very much from pre-COVID.

 

Adeeb Fazah

Yeah. But now I'm thinking a lot more about the format, because it must be creative.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Before the format was a given?

 

Adeeb Fazah

Yeah, I think so.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Great. Cherilyn, what's your approach?

 

Cherilyn Woo

It's pretty similar, I would say - so obviously, the narrative comes first. But I think I also like to think about tech as a character in the space, and not just using it as a gadget or something that's helping to make it more cool. I always like to integrate it a little bit more into the piece, so that it doesn't become just something additional, but rather part of the process as well.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Yeah, so not evoking technology for technology's sake, not trying to be cool just to try and be cool, but what does it entail? What does it look like when technology is a character?

 

Cherilyn Woo

So for a piece that Issy and Cher is trying to develop - it's a children's interactive media piece. The media itself is something that responds to the protagonists. So the protagonist interacts with this wall, where every time she draws on the wall, the strokes will actually appear. And so for us, technology is another character in the story as well as a kind of physicalisation, or something that outputs of this protagonist's imagination. But I think now - as in during the past year, and experimenting with more technology - I'm learning that technology is also a platform, which is very new for me. I think I was trying to get used to incorporating technology into the narrative, into part of the process. But now it's thinking about it as a place where we show things, or it's our bridge to the audience, sometimes.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Another way to think about it is: technology is not flat. It's got its own agencies. Very cool. All right, Xuemei, what is tech to you?

 

Han Xuemei

Tech is something that is, I guess, all around me on a very personal level, right? But yet, it's something that I'm very unfamiliar with. But the way I navigate around that is to - I'm very curious about the intersections between the low-tech, or the human way of interacting with these seemingly unfamiliar high-tech stuff. So for instance - I remember when we were doing Scenes last year - so I'm the kind where maybe the people who are already tech-tech will probably hate, because when we were doing Scenes, and we had this website, this web page that we wanted to make. And any website designer will tell you that, if you consider the user design experience, blah, blah, blah, you'll probably make it this way - you know why? There's a reason why people do a lot of scrolling on web pages and stuff. But then for me, I'd be thinking: oh, I want to make it like a scrapbook, something like that. And designers will hate it, trying to balance between what I want, and what the user design experience ideally should be. So I guess my approach generally has been finding the intersections.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

One thing, quickly - so Scenes, participatory practices - what would you describe this as? It's a bunch of collaborations with other artists around Asia, Asia Pacific?

 

Han Xuemei

I mean, the easiest way to define it is probably a festival that invites artists who work in the area of participatory arts, theatre or other mediums to present works. So it's like a festival of participatory works.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

And you curated some of these pieces?

 

Han Xuemei

Yeah, I was the curator, working together with Heng Leun and Yi Kai from Drama Box to put together this festival programme in 2020.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

So Xuemei, you mentioned how, for you, tech - I mean, you're thinking about the human in all of this, right? I'm curious to hear what your response might be to what Cherilyn said, which is that tech can be treated as a character.

 

Han Xuemei

Interestingly, when she mentioned that, then I thought about how I use tech, but again, in a very low-tech way. So I think there were some pieces where I was very interested in using the voice of an absent character for my works. So in a way audiences would listen to cassette tapes - but that's a kind of technology. It was high-tech a long time ago. So I guess in terms of looking at how to play with voices of characters that never appear, I think that was one thing that really was compelling for me.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

So far, we've got this whole thing about what is low-tech and what is high-tech coming up, and just recognising the fact that what is low-tech to us now was very fancy high-tech once before, right? I'm very cognizant of the fact that I'm surrounded by pieces of technology, but I feel 'this is doable, this low-tech' - it's not the metaverse yet. So I see that there are some questions coming in - we can let it pull in our head for a little while. Max Yam says: "can tech be technique, apart from technology" - yeah, web designers will hate it, correct. The other question I saw: "what does it mean for technology to have its own agency though?" So these are things we can sit in for a little while while we continue to do a little bit more stocktaking. And the question now is: what sorts of technologies have you played with? So apart from cassette tapes this year, what else have we played with? I played with Zoom. I'm very proud. First time. Also an audio walk. What else have you all done?

 

Adeeb Fazah

For listeners, they're actually all looking at me, so I guess I will speak. Yeah, a number of Zoom performances - so thinking about how to deliver a typical play, but over the platform of Zoom. So I've explored that as a producer with Xiao Ming, and then directing and creating Broken Turns, which was incorporating Zoom, the monologue drama, as well as Spanish dance. And then also directing The Staff Room with Impromptu Meetings, which was part of NUS Centre for the Arts programming. But also having experimented with Telegram as a way to explore a story being unfolding almost live, but not - so that as a different form of performance. So this was part of the Strike Digital Festival. So Impromptu Meetings put together a 10-minute Telegram drama called Broken Telegram, and it's about these three friends who are in this group chat and they play with the Quizarium bot.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

One second, I just realised - is Broken Telegram like Broken Telephone?

 

Adeeb Fazah

Yeah. Pun. Yeah.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

So they play with a whiteboard?

 

Adeeb Fazah

Oh, it's a bot, and it's called Quizarium - so basically you can play a trivia quiz game; you just invite the bot in, and it will start automatically playing. The audience is invited into this group chat where the three friends are talking, but we've disabled their ways of contributing or talking, so they're very fly on the wall. So that was Broken Telegram. Yeah. And for the same festival, Strike, the Second Breakfast Company presented something on TikTok. We had a full play script, a play text, called Search Engine, and we deconstructed it into different snippets, and then that became different TikToks. It was very interesting, because TikTok Singapore approached the festival - they were curious to see what we were up to, and they were also hoping to help boost the TikToks that surrounded the festival. So they did help with the views on some of our pieces of content for Search Engine. That was very interesting. If you're interested, it's still there - you can go to the Second Breakfast Company on TikTok. And then we most recently launched Geylang Serai Trails with My Geylang Serai, and that is five audio plays, but the audience has to follow a map and find the QR code at five different stops in the Geylang Serai precinct, and then they are treated to adifferent radio play at each stop.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Nice. So, radio plays, but also fancy telegram bots - which, to just go back to our previous point about what is high-tech and low-tech, tt also feels like a call-back to older, earlier forms of presentation. Radio plays were all the buzz a couple of decades ago, and we've kind of forgotten about them until now - now that we can't sit in a theatre, we're playing with audio a bit more. And Cherilyn, you've done something similar, yeah?

 

Cherilyn Woo

Yeah. I've done an audio trail on Telegram - we used a Telegram bot, and we worked with a programme software developer. So that's part of the 'tech as character' that I use. The audio trail was with Issy and Cher, and it's a trail in Serangoon Gardens, and then another show that's in development is a children's piece, where we work with Connect [unclear], which is a sensor that picks up your limbs, and then you can draw on the wall. And I'm in a group called Architects of Realities, where we explore different realities and performance, and it's a lab by the NAC called The Art Tech Lab. We're playing around with VR as well as projection mapping, and it's mainly used to see how we can rehearse with actors or even do some actor training in performance as well. But aside from that, I've done some music videos with Patch and Punnet, and I was part of a film that Nine Years Theatre did as well, and I was also part of Coronalogues, which were different monologues put together by SRT.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

As you can tell, we've been a busy bunch, right? So a couple of things that are emerging out of just that, right - one is that: compared to, say, last year, where the emphasis really was on how to bring theatre to homes, because that's the only place that we could be in for a long, long time - in your home, nowhere else, right? This year, even though we still have to be socially distant, there is some degree of coming back together, and we seem to have been using technology to bring us out of the home, but not quite into the theatre, not in the traditional theatre sense - hence then bringing us into places like Geylang Serai, or Serangoon Gardens, or getting technology to evoke our bodies - Cherilyn, your piece about mapping, essentially, someone's limb movements into drawing. Do you think, given that technology has aided this emergence from the home, that it's here to stay, that maybe this is the new way?

 

Cherilyn Woo

I think art has - this is going to sound very biased, but I think art has helped to highlight that technology can do that, by creating these events, by creating these experiences. Because I think technology brings people out anyway, because of our phones and different sorts of technology. But then when we create these experiences, people get to go to things in a place where maybe they haven't really been or haven't really explored. And then art can help to highlight or help them realise different things.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

So I have a question now for Xuemei, because - you started playing with technology in a way. I'm sure we've all at different degrees played with technology, but I'm thinking particularly about your piece Flowers from 2019. So this is an installation journey slash audio journey; you were evoking elements of technology in a time when you didn't exactly have to-have to. My question for you is: why, in that time, were you engaging technology? What was technology doing for you then?

 

Han Xuemei

Interestingly, I think at that time, and maybe even now, I don't think of technology in a very significant way, like "ah, let's see how to use technology". But I saw the cassette tape and the voice, versus "okay, this is technology". I think this applies in all the other works that I've done before. So it was, again - going back to what Adeeb said earlier, and maybe what Cherilyn echoed also - that it was always revolving around how do we want to tell the story or how do we want to play with different mediums in a way to bring out the characters and whatever they are experiencing. And for me, I think at that time, because I was also very into - I mean, I still am - looking at audience participation and the role that the audience takes on in any kind of experience. The other consideration that I would have is: how are the audiences experiencing this journey? So I think that's when different mediums, some of them including a lot of tech stuff, come into play. And I think this is not something that I do alone - I think theatre being so multidisciplinary necessitates that we work with people from various fields, and I'm sure both of them will agree that we enjoy working in that way, with people from different fields. So I think starting off with lighting, sound, and then gradually involving visual media projection, and then now people in other kinds of technology design fields - I think that's where these ideas and this introduction of different tools that we never know about come in as well, from these people.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Yeah, I definitely want to get into that question of what that labour behind all of this looks like - what does the team now look like? But before that, let's talk about another group of people that I really like, which is the audience, because, you know, they buy tickets, pay us money. Xuemei, you mentioned that you are thinking about the audience, how this is going to work for the audience, how your evocation, how your use of technology is going to read across to the audience. Question for Cherilyn and Adeeb: do you find yourself thinking about the audience differently now that you are evoking Telegram or Zoom?

 

Adeeb Fazah

I guess it's really a matter of the audience's experience for me. I mean, it comes down to as simple as, let's say, a very, I don't know, traditional 'in a theatre venue' kind of performance. Even if it's as simple as "okay, I'm going to use strobe lights", I'm thinking about: okay, but is this necessary for an audience? What kind of care do I need to take? And it comes down to that, right - what is the audience experience going to be like? So then when you add different technology into your storytelling, it's also a matter of: how will the audience encounter all the different elements that I've used and tapped on and put together for this thing? For example, if I've used an element of Zoom, then I must think about: how is the audience going to meet us and interact with the Zoom? I think for me it comes back down to the audience experience.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Do you find that you still have to teach the audience how to use the medium? Remember, in the early, early days of Zoom, they'll still all be "how to find the mute button", right?

 

Adeeb Fazah

Yeah, good times. Not until like that lah, but I think yes, though - I'm going to say yes, because I think sometimes you just don't use it as often, it's not as familiar. Even this Telegram stream thing, I think a bit of instruction is still very helpful, goes a long way to an audience who maybe only downloaded Telegram to encounter this stream. So maybe not like "oh, the mute button is down there", but also, please mute yourself if you're not talking - I think sometimes it's still needed, not because we are not familiar with the technology, but just because we're humans.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Well, I mean, think about it. It's the idea of audience making, right? The work of audience making is never-ending.

 

Cherilyn Woo

I always find that part really interesting. I think now how we learn technology is through peer learning - I learned how to use Clubhouse through my friends, and actually in our audio trail with Serangoon Gardens - the piece is called A Collection of Things - we actually had one of the stage management people to help onboard the audience, which is where we talked through with the audience how to use Telegram, and we did it as part of the experience. The stage manager was saying that - they had to look for an uncle called Uncle Tiong, and it was told through the son called Ben, and the stage manager had to say that she is a friend of Ben, and so it becomes part of that world. And also for Telegram we created onboarding pages before you get to the real bot. And I did that for a Singapore Writers Fest piece as well, where I are also used the Telegram bot. Strike had that a little bit - there were a lot of people on one Telegram channel, and if anyone didn't know how to use or how to enter a game, actually, there would be other audience members - I remember it was quite a community. It was actually really fun. Other audience members will help other audience members. It didn't always have to be "okay, here's a tutorial", to break that wall. It can be integrated into the project and the experience as well, which is really interesting - I think that's one of my realisations for the year, actually.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Yeah. So I think there's a really nice metaphor here from Max in in the chat. He says "it's like people walking into a new venue". I'm just going to take this next question from Weiliang, because it is a really evocative one. What are your risk appetites - have you been investing? What are your risk appetites for incorporating platforms that are unfamiliar to the audience into your work? So not Zoom or Telegram, which people already use in their day-to-day lives, but something that the audience has deliberately downloaded just to encounter your work?

 

Han Xuemei

I think while we were talking about how tech has become very prominent these two years - at some point, I was wondering about the idea of how visible we want the tech to be, because I think we all agree that tech is actually not new in theatre, right? It has always been around. It's just that, in the past, we tried to make it as invisible as possible - we use sensors, we use whatever. We don't tell people to go and control the mixer board. We don't do that. But now it's interesting that it's very visible, and that's why we have all these instructions on how to use. So going back to Weiliang's question about risk appetites, I think it still goes back to... for me, I would say that my risk appetite is very high when I'm alone and in my zone. But I think the important question is always: why? It goes back to why we want the audience to experience this in a certain way. If you want them to download something, is it a functional thing? A technical thing? I know someone just asked "what do you mean by technical" earlier on, so I'm going to take out that word. Is it a functional thing? Or is it something that's got to do with the narrative. How does it impact the experience, and who does it include or exclude? That's something I've been thinking about since the transition into all these mediums where the audience has to learn how to use certain things - and some audiences just shut off, like "I cannot participate in this thing, because I don't know how to use it". And that makes me question a lot, like "what are we doing here?"

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Xuemei, you had a really important point at the beginning, which is that technology is not new to theatre, and essentially, what is happening last year and this year is that we are recognising certain types of technologies - let's call them platforms - in addition to all the extant technologies that we already use, which is sound, and light design, and AV. So now we have a new category of technology. What does this entail for the production group? How does the production group look different now? Who else is involved, is the question. Designers, engineers, people who know how to use these technologies?

 

Cherilyn Woo

I think it depends on the - if it's a new technology, then we would have to get an expert or somebody who uses that. I guess if we're doing a web design as part of the experience, we need to get a web designer. For the Telegram bot, I had to use this software developer, who was actually my brother. I kept it in the family. I come from a tech family, so he had to do it. Oopsie. But yeah - I think it depends on the sort of technology that we're using, and more often than not, it has to - even in Architects Reality we have - we call them technologists, but they're also artists. Timothi Lim works with VR, and we also have Joe Ho, who works with production design, and that's the medium that they usually work with, so they are included as well. But it's becoming more diverse - I think we're seeing more and more new faces, which is cool. I really like it.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Response from the chat: Cherilyn, very good use of existing resources. Very sustainable model you have going on. Who else? So other than web designers, who else have you had to work with? I worked with a sound designer. That was really fun. I mean, not new, but new to me.

 

Cherilyn Woo

I wish I could work with TikTok - shout out to TikTok.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Here's our pitch for everyone, that if you work with a particular medium that has a bit of capital, maybe you can get some of that capital.

 

Adeeb Fazah

TikTok, if you're listening... I don't know. I think it's been quite - for the live performances that I've done, in the most like traditional sense of it this year - what's changed is now every production gets a proper recording. For example, the Singapore Trilogy in March, we insisted to have some kind of recording that was watchable for an audience who didn't go to the theatre. That was a very deliberate and intentional part of the entire production - things like speaking to a company who would come in, and then them bringing in the crew and the setup, and it was also a scheduling matter where we were like: "okay, should we book an extra four hours? Five hours?" All of that. I think the idea that: actually, why haven't we included this in our process, if, let's say, we want to show the work as part of... someone is doing research into, I don't know, whatever plays. If someone, in later years, wants to see a sample video of the play, or if we want to tour the work, sell the work - we should consider having some kind of video recording. I insisted on doing a proper recording of each of the performances that I've done this year onwards. So that is kind of new for me.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

And it's great, not just in the short-term, in that if any audience members missed the run, they can watch it again, but it's great in the long-term, in that we have good quality archival material of the production itself, and not just the ephemera around the production. What is it like to work with a tech company specifically? Because artists like us, we collaborate quite often with other non-artists, whether it's a funding group or a commissioning agency - but tech companies specifically, do they get us, are we friends?

 

Adeeb Fazah

I think so. At least for me, in my experience, the groups that I have been working with - they also straddle not just technology but also creation. So there is some level of art. The company we worked with for the Singapore Trilogy is a production house, a video production house, so they are very much in artmaking. So they're also concerned in how to tell the story, but their expertise lies in the different media. And then, for example, for Geylang Serai Trails, the people we worked with was Art Wave Studio; they are also concerned about the story, the storytelling, as much as we are, and we are collaborating on this one particular project, but we want the same kind of outcomes. So that really helps.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Yeah, good. So same direction, essentially. So we're not frenemies lah.

 

Adeeb Fazah

Not really.

 

Cherilyn Woo

That's the thing - as artists and creators, we're quite malleable in the way - we are very used to collaborating with different sorts of people, and we got used to the kind of onboarding experience. If somebody doesn't know what we're doing, we normally have our point forms and and write ups to help orientate the person. So I think as creators or anyone who's in the creating business, you don't have to be theatre artists, or artists, or musicians. You do have that skillset of being able to merge groups together and find intersections.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Simply put, we have the skillsets to work together, to be nice. And I think that's been suggested in the chat, the question of whether this space of tech is less governed. Now I want to pair that with some of the data that the group behind Year In Review has been collecting, and it's published on ArtsEquator - so the Year In Review 2021 data. I'm looking at the breakdown of works presented, whether it's companies, educational institutions, collectives, independent artists or others. And what stands out is that this year, compared to last year, independent artists have been putting out far more work. 41 pieces this year over 18 pieces by independent artist last year. Does this make sense to you? Do you see why this is happening? Even though all of you have companies or you're working with companies and collectives - what is it about tech, beyond the obvious low cost of entry, that is maybe encouraging independent artists to put out work?

 

Adeeb Fazah

Just to preface the answer to this question, I suspect a lot of it has to do with the timing of the Self-Employed Persons grant. I mean, the nature of independent artists is that they tend to be.

 

Cherilyn Woo

Does this cover the DPG grant period? No, right?

 

Adeeb Fazah

DPG would have started production last year in March, and then all of the SEP grant projects started this year, and will carry on until March next year.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

So, ultimately, it's about funding.

 

Adeeb Fazah

Yeah. I think a big part of independent theatre making has to do with where the funding is going to come from.

 

Cherilyn Woo

From last year, there might have been more collaborations being made, and then that carries on over to this year, and they continue making.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

I think a couple of shows have been what started off digital last year - what started off in draft form digital has moved into a more developed form or in-person or hybrid presentation. I don't know if you guys remember, but it feels like by the middle of the this year, there was a bit of talk about Zoom fatigue, right? I just don't want to be on Zoom anymore - how many shows are they going to put on Zoom? Do I have to stare at a screen again? Can go out already what. My question is: even though there was all this talk about Zoom fatigue, in that period and in the period after, we continue to put out more digital work, even as all these live spaces were opening up. Is it comfortable? Is that why we keep going back to it? Is this our new favourite toy? Or are we still holding a pattern, holding that survival pattern from last year, hoping to wait it out until things go back to normal. And I'm going to start with asking Xuemei, because lucky you put yourself on a little break this year, isn't it?

 

Han Xuemei

Yes, kind of. I would like to think that, at least from this year onwards - and also from what Adeeb and Cherilyn were sharing about in terms of their own practices - that it is probably starting to go beyond the survival mode kind of thing. In fact, purely from the fact that the kind of people that they are seeking in their collaborations, the kind of processes that they are looking at in creating the works indicates that it's going somewhere deeper. And I think as theatre practitioners, as people who are trying to make work and make meaning of our work, it tends to go there. I don't think people in the scene would be satisfied with incessant survival mode making. I guess it's a very natural thing to always be - maybe we start with making something out of survival of whatever, but eventually it actually moves into something where we are starting to ask questions - what kind of questions about tech and art would matter to us in that process? And I think that's where we will head towards in the longer term. I know even questions about funding, what kind of funding is suitable for deeper collaborations, deeper artmaking when it comes to tech - I think that's something that we probably are starting to also wonder about.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Yeah. Cherilyn, have you seen that shift for yourself, because you were one of the brave ones who started off with the very first made-for-Zoom piece, the Coronalogues by SRT? And you've gone from Zoom early on last year to all your Telegram bots this year. How have things changed for you? What is your approach to tech?

 

Cherilyn Woo

I just realised I haven't done a Zoom play. So Coronalogues was actually a video release, but I actually haven't done a Zoom play. But I have done Telegram. How has my approach changed to when I'm using the technology?

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Let me put it this way - so when when you started off with Coronalogues, it was, what, a response to the time?

 

Cherilyn Woo

They approached me, and nobody was doing anything during that time, so this was also a chance to do some work; it was a chance to venture into something new. I hadn't done anything for video before, and it was just two monologues, about five minutes each, that felt safe enough to venture into, that if I didn't do so well, there was just a quick brief moment that would go into it. But I also was working with theatre artists, so I felt very supported, and it was a nice collaboration and it felt like everyone was feeling their way through it, which was nice.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Right, so everyone's feeling their way through it, and it was almost like, at least from the audience expectation from the outside, it's like, okay, we can see that everyone's just trying, and we will all be nice, we will accept the work as it is. But now that we've seen more pieces, whether Zoom or any other kind of technology mediated pieces, the expectation for quality has gone up, hasn't it? Do you feel that? Or am I projecting?

 

Cherilyn Woo

Yeah, I feel it. I think people are now, like, "oh, arts and tech can now merge, so many things happening, so why can't you be more innovative, do more wilder things?" And you're like, "well, what wild things you want to see?" And they're like, "I don't know, just make it". And then you're like, "well, okay, I've got to go think about it". I think there's that expectation, and you have to wear both skills the same way, and we only had a year. I mean, if you only just came into using different types of technology, you're actually quite new, and I think people should understand that it is a process. You take 10,000 hours to learn a skill. I think there's that expectation that "oh, so now you've done this, you can go build a rocket ship.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Next year, let's see Cherilyn's rocket ship - I'm sure it will come out. Xuemei, the question for you is - we've heard from Cherilyn as, let's say, an individual, but you are a resident artist of Drama Box. What is the approach companies are taking? Even think about it from a capital point of view, if it makes more sense to invest in digital productions, because confirmed won't get cancelled? Is that the approach?

 

Han Xuemei

I can only speak for Drama Box. For me, what is nice is that at Drama Box, somehow we have the space and some form of stability. It's a very fortunate position to be in, to actually not jump into it right away, and really to ask a lot of the 'why' questions, especially also because pre-COVID times, and even now, I think one of our primary ways of artmaking, or the reasons why we make, is actually to reach out to communities, and to either create spaces and opportunities for varied types of interactions to happen, to change ways we experience space and time in our lives. So I think when the ethos of our work centres around this very visceral experience, it's a very tricky situation to say "let's just go into making art in the digital platform". I think there is a balance there - are we thinking about how can the company sustain in these times? Yes, of course. But then, is the solution and answer " okay, let's digitalise" - I think there is a lot of thought around it. I would say that moving forward - because for me, within the company, what I would like to do more of is actually looking at how to engage young people. So that's an area where I see the marriage of tech and arts and engagement that we want to have can have potential to go deeper and can reach out to a relevant group of people. But I wouldn't say that we see digital tools or platforms as THE way - it's probably just one medium or one tool that we have.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

So one new toy in the toy basket, right? One new piece of tool to use, a new friend.

 

Han Xuemei

And one new and huge aspect of our daily lives now that we are learning, trying to understand, learning how to work with it and against it sometimes.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Yeah. Have you all found that, in this last year, with all your works, that what theatre means has changed quite drastically, and what it means to be a theatre practitioner has changed, because of all this engagement of tech?

 

Cherilyn Woo

I think there's definitely existential doubt coming around, especially when the circuit breaker first happened, and it was just "whoa, what do I do now?" But definitely I feel like amongst talking with other people that there's a lot of "okay, so what actually is theatre, and what does it mean to be a theatre artist?" What is life, and how does tech come into all of this? How do we still keep a certain part of identity, or how does the identity innovate or change a little bit during these times? And I think for theatre and the performing arts, it is shifting a little bit around the world, which is exciting, but also scary, all the different fields.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Yeah, it's a brave new world, and we will be brave. Let's move on from all these long, deep questions. I'm going to invite all of you in the chat to stop talking about what stocks to buy - I'm kidding - and give us questions. While you type, I'm going to have the panelists give their hot takes on some of these things that have been floating around for the last two years. So the question is: do you still want this around in the next year? What do you feel? Yes or no, a short response will do. First thing: Zoom-only productions, only on Zoom. Yes, no?

 

Adeeb Fazah

I want to say yes, but do really crazy stuff, exciting stuff with it. And obviously that's like: what is this crazy, exciting stuff? I don't know, I'll figure it out.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

So your Zoom production must be more interesting than my Zoom class?

 

Adeeb Fazah

I think so.

 

Cherilyn Woo

I'm gonna say yes too, because I watched a magic show on Zoom that I really, really enjoyed - Scott Silven in SIFA. That was, wow. So I'm going to say yes.

 

Han Xuemei

Yes. But I know I'm not going to do it. It doesn't mean I don't want to see it - I do want to see more experimentation as well. Actually, maybe I shouldn't say I won't do it. Sekali the first thing I do is a Zoom play.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Alright, second one: live-streamed performances. A live performance, but it's streamed and then you watch at home.

 

Cherilyn Woo

I'll say yes, just in case there's a production in the Netherlands that has something that I really want to watch, then I'm like, yeah.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Yeah, we haven't talked about - how this digital world has allowed us to be a lot more global - quite literally, you can watch pieces from the Globe.

 

Adeeb Fazah

I agree. I think it's a good way to give a glimpse of the live production to people who can't be there.

 

Han Xuemei

No. Not in the traditional live streaming that I understand, but to think about how to present a work via video. I think that is valuable, but not live streaming.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Okay. Third one: audio walks, specifically self-guided audio walks. Aren't all audio works self guided?

 

Cherilyn Woo

Some are guided, but then they have the transmitter.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Okay, no. We're talking about self-guided ones, so no tour guide there for you. I'm going to say yes, because I like the walks.

 

Adeeb Fazah

I think yes, if it's a way to encourage people to go outside, visit a thing or a site.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Sorry, you all still need encouragement to go outside?

 

Adeeb Fazah

Sometimes, yeah, with all this technology in my house.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

That's why I'm running away from it. With my Airpods plugged in and my iPhone in my hand. Fourth one: certain shows on texting platforms, so shows on Telegram or WhatsApp.

 

Cherilyn Woo

Like only?

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Only. So you don't go out, you sit in your home, your hold your phone, and you look at somebody else texting.

 

Cherilyn Woo

My first instinct is no, but then what if somebody comes up with a really good idea? Then it could be pretty cool. And then I'll be like, yeah.

 

Adeeb Fazah

For me, it's: how else could it be engaging?

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Okay. Last question: Video on Demand option. Yes, no? Do we like Video on Demand?

 

Adeeb Fazah

As an option.

 

Cherilyn Woo

Well, if I'm in the same country, then no, I don't like Video on Demand. If I can go watch the show, then I'd rather not have that option.

 

Han Xuemei

Sorry. What's the main difference between Video on Demand and any normal video?

 

Vithya Subramaniam

So Video on Demand you can watch at whatever time you want, like Netflix. I personally find that when there's a Video on Demand option, I don't watch the live show, and then I forget to watch the Video on Demand. So all in all, I just miss the show - I'm such a procrastinator, it's not good for me. All right, we have five minutes. In this last five minutes, I just want to get the panelists to help us out - us being the rest of us out here who are still struggling with Telegram bots - what would your quick tip be, for someone who's got an idea, who wants to put out a piece, but is trying to figure out how to choose a platform, what medium to use - or does it just come to you one day?

 

Cherilyn Woo

I think Adeeb and Xuemei mentioned this - this thing about experience. What do you want the audience to walk away with, who are you affecting, who are you getting? I think that normally helps to guide you. I think you apply it to your own life, and then find something that really speaks to you, and then you will go for it, I think. But the main point is to try it.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Yeah, but do we still agree that it's story first?

 

Han Xuemei

Wong Kar Wai will say experience first.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Ah, okay. If we're talking about experience, then let's think specifically about the experience. Are there any cool approaches or functions or platforms that you want to see people play with? You're off the hook, I'm not expecting you to do it, but you want to see someone else play with this approach or a function or platform around technology.

 

Han Xuemei

I want to talk about two things. One is an approach - also linking to the previous question of tips - I would say what has been fun for me, or a starting point to think about, is usually: if I come across a tool or medium, one way is to think about how to use it like it is, but make it a compelling experience. The other way is: how to deliberately veer away from how it's being used so that you can change human behaviour. So that's one way I usually start thinking, and then it gets me to different places. Then, for me, personally, the thing that I really wanted to try is the intersection between technology and natural elements - for instance, how can I use technology, whatever it is, I have no idea what mediums - but how can I use technology to co-create with, for example, the sun? To find ways to marry the natural elements and what we know as artificial.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

So, say, for instance, an audio walk that tells you to walk through a certain part of our landscape, right? Is that what you're thinking of?

 

Han Xuemei

No - okay, I think I have to share the sunblock story. Long story short, if you have ever applied sunblock, but never apply it properly, you'll realise that, after you finish with whatever outdoor activity, your hand will have this fingerprint mark that is left by the sunblock. So that is what I call a sunblock - you can actually do painting with the sun and the sunblock. So I'm just thinking - are there technologies that can actually understand the way nature works, and then use technology and certain mediums to get nature to help us make things happen? The simple thing to imagine is, let's say you can create a painting out of that, and there's no paint involved - it's really the sunlight and something else. So actually it's science also.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

So all you budding naturists, scientists, technologists, i.e. potential collaborators, please get in Xuemei's DMs. Cherilyn and Adeeb, any cool functions, mediums?

 

Cherilyn Woo

I'd really like to try like holograms, but I also really want to do something with astronomy, astrology and something to do with space. But I don't know how. But if anyone knows...

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Space as in above our atmosphere, that space?

 

Cherilyn Woo

Yeah, with astronauts, maybe, I don't know. So NASA, if you're listening in. Or Elon Musk.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

Wow, we went from TikTok to Elon Musk. I like this - very ambitious.

 

Adeeb Fazah

Very quickly - I'm just thinking aloud, I guess - if art could be created, stories could be told, as part of our everyday routine experiences. Let's say if I booked a Grab, I don't know, something might happen as I wait.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

So this is like the swimming otter in your TraceTogether app? But fancier than that?

 

Cherilyn Woo

The swimming otter could talk and tell your story.

 

Adeeb Fazah

Yeah, exactly. TraceTogether, EZLINK, could be an interesting - there could be something happening while you're on the commute.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

On that note, other than calling for collaborators - last quick tip for anyone who is still feeling very overwhelmed by technology, anyone who's already in the industry, is a theatremaker and is feeling like they haven't caught up in the last year, the last two years - how ah?

 

Cherilyn Woo

It's a journey, man. Just keep on going. You will find your path. I think just do it.

 

Adeeb Fazah

Just do it, at your own pace.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

But how to start?

 

Adeeb Fazah

The best way to start is to just start.

 

Cherilyn Woo

Find what you really are curious about, and then you're like: "I wonder what happens if I do this". And it could just be with yourself, and then slowly you'll find other people that want to do it too.

 

Vithya Subramaniam

First step is the hardest. Basically, it's like us 80s, 90s kids - how did we first learn technology? It's just by poking around, isn't it? So same lah. All right. Cool. Thank you very much, everybody. That has been our panel Art and Tech, Frenemies? I think the conclusion is friends, possibly lovers.

 

Cherilyn Woo

Shout out to everyone listening. Thanks for joining us, everybody.